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252 COMMUNISM IN MOTION-PICTURE INDUSTRY Waldo Salt and Charles Glenn, and much to our surprise we discov- ered that Jack Lawson was the liaison between the county and the sec- tion, having been given the job by the county, which made him once again the leader of the section. Mr. Tavenner. Let us be certain that we get that in an under- standable way. As a result of the Duclos letter, there was initiated a proceeding to oust him from his position of leadership ? Mr. Collins. There was a review of the entire leadership, nation- ally. Then in all the local committees this presumably took place. Mr. Tavenner. Who initiated this action ? Mr. Collins. In a new committee, I think, each branch had one representative. Mr. Tavenner. What part did you take in it ? Mr. Collins. I was the representative from my branch. Another committee had prepared this document on Lawson after talking to him. They prepared documents on others, too. I went downtown when Nemmy Sparks was in charge and presented my position regard- ing Lawson, and Nemmy Sparks listened to it quite coldly. Mr. Tavenner. Who was Nemmy Sparks ? Mr. Collins. Organizer in Los Angeles County. He listened closely and I was subsequently stripped of my epaulets and I held no position in the party. Mr. Tavenner. After taking action which you thought removed Lawson from the position he then held, he was placed in the same position, though known under a different title? Mr. Collins. Yes. As I look back, I think Nemmy Sparks was right in supporting Lawson instead of supporting me, from the Com- munist Party point of view. Mr. Tavenner. Are there any other instances concerning Commu- nist Party discipline ? Mr. Collins. Not that I remember. I think a great many people like me were profoundly disturbed by the events following the Duclos letter—the Maltz incident was after that—and I know people who are either out or thinking of going out of the party. Mr. Tavenner. Will you repeat that, please? Mr. Collins. There were a good many people after the Duclos letter and after the Maltz incident who were dissatisfied and wanted to get out of the party. Some have gotten out and some have not. It is hard to get out, not because anybody tells you you can't butj because you have associations of many years, and you have liberal question that you believed in together, and probably still do, and you have many hours of energy and time invested, and it is only when issues become sharp that decisions are made. Mr. Tavenner. It requires more courage to get out than get in? Mr. Collins. I don't know. I think it takes something to get out. I don't know what it is. Mr. Tavenner. You were in a position to observe the various switches in the Communist Party line during the period you were a member. Will you give the committee the benefit of yourknowledge regarding certain outstanding instances of Communist Party switches ? Mr. Collins. One of the main switches prior to the Duclos letter was the Nazi-Soviet pact. Prior to the Nazi-Soviet pact, the Soviet