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COMMUNISM IN MOTION-PICTURE INDUSTRY 1451 Mr. Ashe. Freed. Mr. Doyle. Freed ? Mr. Ashe. That's correct. Mr. Doyle. I think you said that he pushed his way to a squad car and they finally obliged him; this was the first time he made a martyr of himself. Mr. Ashe. That's correct. He was a rather amusing character in the party at the time I was there. Mr. Doyle. It is a general thing in the Communist Party member- ship that they try to make martyrs of themselves? Mr. Ashe. No; it is not. Not at that time. The policy was, of course, to not flinch before the police if we had tangled with the police, which we did at that time, but at the same time it was not the party policy, nor is it the policy of the International Labor De- fense, to seek out unnecessary arrests which would involve the legal defense of people M*ho otherwise wouldn't have to be defended. It is an expensive procedure. Occasionally they would make an issue for purposes of propaganda, but he was certainly under no such in- struction, and it was a case of individual action on his part, and he was criticized for it. Mr. Doyle. I notice when you listed the five objectives of the Com- munist Party in Los Angeles County and in California, so far as Hol- lywood was concerned, the last one you listed, I believe, or identified, was in the sense of a criticism, I took it, or a suggestion that there was lack of vigilance on the part of anti-Communists Mr. Ashe. That is true. Mr. Doyle. As to the real hazard. Well, now, what could folks do who want to smoke out subversive people in subversive programs to be more vigilant ? What from a practical viewpoint might be done? Mr. Ashe. Well, my criticism was leveled in a period in 1934. I certainly don't think it holds true today so far as the motion-picture industry is concerned. I do think that too many people in this coun- try are asleep at the switch. Too many people do not know what communism is. They haven't even got a working knowledge of it. They couldn't define it. They don't know what its objectives are, and from this vague ignorance they are in no position to cope with it. After all, a doctor that knows nothing about a certain disease, I am fearful he wouldn't know much about isolating it. Mr. Doyle. Have you any program of education to recommend? Mr. Ashe. Not offhand; no; except that I feel that there is still gen- erally an apathetic attitude in this country toward communism. I think that its numerical strength misleads people. I think that at the present time it is understood to have 40,000 members. Mr. Doyle. How do you explain the large attendance in this hear- ing room today Mr. Ashe. This is a Mr. Doyle. If there is apathy on the part of the public ? Mr. Ashe. I am speaking of the public generally. I think that if we could make a poll here you would find approximately two-thirds of these people are members of or sympathizers of the Communist Party, and you have here a practical demonstration of a united front. This, incidentally, is a very clear evidence of apathy. I don't know what the numerical membership of the Communist Party here is now, or of its sympathizers, but I think it is significant that out of this small