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MOTION-PICTURE JURISDICTIONAL DISPUTES 1093 Mr. Rathvox. I am not sure I was informed that specific action would be taken, but I certainly was informed they were advising with one another and with counsel and would take such action as they decided was necessary in order to keep the studios open. Mr. McCann, Were you advised, or were you consulted with respect to paying the men off? Mr. Ratiivon. AVhen? Mr. McCaxn. When they were discharged. Mr. Rathvox. What men ? Mr. McCaxx. The men about whom the incidents were to be created. Mr. Rathvox. I don't recall that I had any specific conversation about paying men off. Mr. McCaxx. I assume, Mr. Rathvon, that you do not know a great deal of the minutia, and I am not trying to trap you into any statement with respect to that. Mr. Rathvox. Why don't you question me about policy, then, be- cause that is what I was concerned with ? Mr. McCaxx. All right. Now, there were apparently two big policies decided on by the producers, that they either had to close or they had to create incidents to get rid of the carpenters and the mem- bers of the CSU. Were you acquainted with that fact ? Mr. Rathvox. I would not put it that way. They either had to close or we had to strive to keep the studios open by such means as we prop- erly could on advice of counsel, and that does not mean creating incidents. Mr. McCaxx. Would you say to this committee you were ignorant of the fact that incidents were to be created ? ]Mr. Rathvox^. You are trying to lead me into saying we conspired with one side or the other, and that is not my position. Mr. !McCax^x. I am asking you, are you ignorant of the fact that incidents were to be created ? ]Mr. Rathvox. There is no question incidents would be created be- cause it was beyond our power to prevent incidents. When there is a "hot" set somebody is going to create an incident. Mr. McCaxx. Let us assume this, Mr. Rathvon, that the studio producers labor committee did, prior to September 23, agree that on September 2o all of the carpenters in the major studios were to be assigned to "hot" sets. Did you know that ? Mr. Rathvox. No, I do not believe I did know that. I knew that they were going to take such steps as might be necessary under the circumstances and which might be proper to keep the studios in operation. If you want me to make a statement of any kind in regard to inci- dents on "hot" sets, let me say this: For 2 years we have been in the middle—to use Mr. Johnston's phrase—^between these two conflicting grotips. They are the ones who put us in the middle. We do not put ourselves there. Incidents are created by the conflicting unions, not by the producers, so do not try to put in my mouth that we create incidents. We move to try to mee the situations as created by these two unions. Our attitude is. "a plague on both their houses," so far as we are concerned, and we move the best way we can maneuver to keep our studios in operation.