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1100 MOTION-PICTURE JURISDICTIONAL DISPUTES Mr. Rathvon. Well, I do not know what they did. So far as 1 When it was handed down the carpenters then went back on their position which they had taken at the time tlie agreement was made and refused to live up to it. Mr. Kearns. And asked for clarification? Mr. Rathvon. Well, I do not know what they did. So far as I was concerned, they welshed on their contract and we could not do what we had planned to do, having an arbitration jurisdiction, which was what we had agreed to. Mr. GwiNN. Who is the head of that carpenters union? Mr. Rathvox, The local or the national ? Mr. GwiNN. The national. Mr. Rath vox. Hutcheson. Mr. GwiNN. Who is the head of the local ? Mr. Rathvon. Cambiano. Mr. GwixN. When the carpenters refused to abide by that decree you were then faced with the necessity of getting carpenters or closing your shop^ is that correct? Mr. Rathvon. That is correct. Mr. GwiNN. And you decided to try to go ahead ? Mr. Rathvon. We decided to try to keep our studio open in any way we could. Mr. GwiNN. Where did you go to get carpenters ? Mr. Rathvon. Wlierevcr we could; get them the best place we could get them, and in most instances it was through other unions affiliated with the lATSE. Mr. Gwinn. Were the other unions interested in helping to get car- penters or did you have to take your own responsibility to get car- penters ? Mr. Rathvon. Other unions were interested to see that we kept the studios open and did all they could to make that possible. Mr. GwiNN. So at that point you were in a straight, hot jurisdic- tional fight as between the carpenters and the stage workers; is that correct ? Mr. Rathvon. That is correct. At no time were we in any other position than in the middle as between those two. Mr. Gwt:nn. You were what you might call a clear case of being hit in the middle, as they say ? Mr. Rathvon. We were trying to steer a middle course and keep our studios open. Mr. Gavinn. Now, in connection with Mr. McCann's questions, I am wondering if you had to take certain steps in cooperation with the stage workers union, to test out whether or not your men would or would not continue to work? Mr. Rathvon. We took steps all right, sir; but apparently it is the attitude of this hearing that there was a conspiracy involved between tlie producers in taking the steps and the lATSE, to the detriment of the other side. Now let me say as a producer and the head of one of these companies, we knew at every stage of this thing that between the horns of this dilemma we would have to move one way or the other to keep our studios open. We knew we had to keep within the law. Every step we took was on the advice of counsel.