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MOTION-PICTURE JURISDICTIONAL DISPUTES 1105 Mr, Johnston may have be€n right, but I would like to make this point, which I think is contrary to the implication of your question this morning, that it was not a cowardly course to go ahead and keep the studios open, because I assure you, sir, that was not the case. Mr. Keakns. It was firmly established in the testimony that this jurisdictional strike out there was not caused over any disagreement over wages, hours, or working conditions. We have that in the record. There is no question about that. Mr. Katiivon. The only reason I mentioned it was, that in the pub- licity in the papers in 1945, that was played up at great length as the reason. Of course, we all knew it was not so. Mr. Kearns. Now, I ask you this question, so that you may defend it, which I have in mind to ask every president who appears as a wit- ness here: Have you at any time, or to your knowledge, have any of the officials of your company, in any way agreed with any union to carry on the work in the studios, regardless of jurisdictional disputes? i\Ir. Rathvon. I am trying to answer this very factually, sir. At no time did we conspire, if I understand the meaning of the word "conspiracy." Mr. Kearns. I am not asking you to give any names, you under- stand. Mr. Ratiivon. I would guess that I, to my own knowledge, know- ing when you are faced with a dilemma—when you move one Avay or the other 3'ou favor one side or the other, because you move in one direction as against the other direction—undoubtedly we made a move from time to time in connection with our efforts to keep our studios open, which was in the direction of the lA rather than in the direction of the other unions. On the other hand, when we felt the time had come to renew negotia- tions with some of the striking unions, we did not ask the lA for per- mission ; we went ahead and moved in that direction. Now, when you are being chased by two wild bulls across a field, you are going to veer in the direction of the bull that does not run quite so fast. So I felt if we have leaned more toward the lA rather than the other side in order to keep our studios open, it was a matter of strategy and nothing else, I assure you. Mr. Keakns. Do you want that to appear as your analysis that it was a matter of strategy rather than conspiracy? Mr. Rathvon. Yes, sir. I said before, "a plague on both their houses." Mr. Kearns. Would you say that Mr. Walsh has been cooperative ? Mr. Rathvon. I would say Mr. Walsh is in a position to do more to keep our studios open than the other side, and did more to enable us to keep our studios open. Mr. Kearns. Would you say that Mr. Hutcheson has been anything but coojierative in trying to reach a solution ? Mr. Rathvon. I think Mr. Hutcheson has at no time had any con- sideration for the producing companies, or actually for the employees of the motion-picture company, I think he is fighting an old battle of his own. As you all know, it was started back in 1926, and I think he saw a chance to perha])s open an issue which had been rankling in his soul for m.any years, and that is the basis of this whole thing.