Minutes of evidence taken before the Departmental Committee on Cinematograph Films (1936)

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 131 30 June, 1936.] Mr. H. Bruce Woolfe. [Continued. point ot view of the Corporation, it affects them on both sides; they are large theatre owners, they have gone very carefully into the matter, and they have found that the type of person who visits the Church hall to see the kind of programme which is sent out by our organisation is quite a different type of person from the one who visits the local cinema theatre, and they found it made practically no difference. 1378. Would the Church hall become a sort of recruiting centre for the more romantic, more sophisticated film of the halls? — I should imagine that the Church hall might induce quite a large number of people to visit films that do not at present visit them, provided they thought they were going to get the type of film they wanted to see. 1379. To what extent is the non-flam, controversy lined up with this subject? — The non-flam, controversy does not exist as far as we are concerned, because all our non-theatrical material is sent out on non-flam. 1380. Is all your material of standard size? — Both standard and 16. All the films that we make are photographed on standard size and then reduced afterwards. 1381. Do you send out programmes which include both cultural and educational and comic? — If they are asked for, yes. 1382. So as to have both sides catered for? — Yes. 1383. The lighter side?— Yes. 1384. And there is a shortage on the lighter side as well as the serious? — Of comedies, and so forth? 1385. Yes?— YTes. 1386. In paragraph 6 you refer to the position that in Germany and in Italy it is compulsory to show an educational or cultural film in each programme, and you stigmatise both as being propaganda?— Opening the door to propaganda. 1387. Well, opening the door to propaganda. If the Government of a country desires to promote physical education, is it not a legitimate activity as a part of the business of Government to say to cinema companies, " You shall show educational films approved by us which encourage physical education " ? Why not? — Yes, certainly. 1388. Well, that is not propaganda ?— That is hardly the type of propaganda that I had in mind. I had in mind commercial propaganda. 1389. Well, if it is certified as educational and cultural to play upon the laudable ambitions of men and women to cultivate their own bodies, to play upon the desire to ride, to shoot, or even to tell the truth, that would be, I suppose, in a sense propaganda ? — Of course, every film is propaganda if one takes it as far as that, but what I meant was commercial propaganda which has been bought and paid for. 1390. Now I will come to that. There is a great deal of propaganda in the recent documentary film depicting the herring industry. That is in every sense a national industry? — Yes. 1391. Which the Government have deliberately decided to encourage. We wish to place industry in this country on the highest footing possible, as not merely being a living but a way of life which may encourage men and women to realise the dignity of their occupation and the extent to .which they are really serving their own country by doing their work and doing it well, at the same time encouraging manufacturers and the owners, the employers, who see these films to employ their workmen in the best possible conditions. Now, is there really any strong element of trade propaganda in a film which has been paid for by the Herring Board? — Well, 1 should think that that would be their main object. It seems to me that if the Government required a film to be made dealing with any particular industry, I think if they asked leading film companies to undertake the production of a film of that description there would be quite a few companies that would be prepared to undertake that production, .which 37873 would then ensure that no particular propaganda would be included. 1392. Why should it not be included for the industry as a whole? I wish to encourage British fruit as against American fruit ; I wish to encourage British fish as against the tinned sardine — is that propaganda? — Yes, it is propaganda. 1393. Well, do you object to it?— Well, I do not know that I would, but I am quite sure the exhibitor would. 1394. Well, are exhibitors to run this nation entirely?— No. 1395. Is Box Office value to be the sole indication of what we may or may not do ? — The point is, can you force them to take these films. 1396. It is done in Italy or Germany — why not here? — If a film is made that is not supported by the Pig Board or the Herring Board, or whoever it may be, the exhibitors will take it. 1397. It does not follow that they are right to ignore the Board set up by their own Government, by their own Parliament in their own interests with the assent of all parties? — No, that is true. 1398. Y'ou mentioned the B.B.C. as being a body which is particularly free from propaganda. Yet their news is rigidly censored day by day to exclude certain topics; they refuse to discuss altogether certain aspects of public policy. The fact that it is controlled by a Corporation does not make it less free of propaganda? — It is rather a negative type of propaganda, is it not? 1399. Well, there is insidious selection of news items which is just as propagandist as anything well can be and of speakers. Once you have individual men and women exercising their judgment however honestly and in complete good faith as to what the public are to be told it is quite inevitable that you should have propaganda. Can you really distinguish between that and the type of cultural educational film to which you allude? — I admit that it would be very difficult, but I think if one draws the line at paid propaganda it is going to be a great help. 1400. Paid propaganda? — Yes, that was what I suggested, that if any propaganda is paid for it should be disclosed. 1401. The League of Nations Union put up a sum of money for a film the other day. What happened to that film? — I do not know, I am sure. 1402. It was intended to be shown in as many theatres as possible. Would you regard that as propaganda? — Yes, but there is no reason why it should not be offered to exhibitors. 1403. You do not object to propaganda in a newsreel? — I would like to see all forms of propaganda publicly disclosed. I mean there must be some sign that it has been paid for. 1404. I see, ordered? — Ordered, yes. 1405. And in paragraph 11 you say: " The use of the cinema for propaganda purposes whether political, social or commercial could have nothing but a deleterious effect upon the future of the cinema industry. We have seen its results in Russia, Germany and Italy . . ." Now, if their propaganda began to affect the cinema in those countries, was it prosperous, and is it now in decay? — Of course, in Russia it has always Been Government propaganda. 1406. Has it had a deleterious effect upon the cinema there? — Well, Russian films are not seen anywhere else. 1407. Nor are British films? — You see them in quite a number of countries. 1408. Is it equally true in Germany? — In Germany the industry up to three or four year ago was a bigger industry than it was here, but since the Hitler regime it is practically nothing ; all that they make is their own propaganda films, taking each other's washing, as it were. 1409. What kind of foreign film do they show — any? — Yes. I was there just about a year ago, and C 4