Variety (Aug 1927)

46 VARIETY LEGITIMATE Wednesday, August 10, IMT VERBATIM TESTIMONY FROM nCK^HEiyUNGBYBOYNTON (Continued from last wook> (Following testimony by Jos. F, Boynton is printed because of its peculiar interest. Boynton, a former ticket wagon man with the Ringting-Barnum Circus, is treasurer of Madison Square Garden. He has handled the tickets for all of the big as well as other fights pro- moted by Tex Rickard.) Unitad States v. Alexander Theatre Tiekat Offiea, at al. New York, July 80, 19K. Prwent: Mr. Tuttle for the (iov&runit iit. Mr. Perlman for the Defendania. JOSEPH F. BOVNTON, called as a witness on behuK of the Oovem- ment, bt.'inK lU'Bt duly awOrn, tea- Ua«d as (uUuws: Q. You mean you want to take that back? A. I take that back. Nobody evtfr encour;it;t'd me to, but people come ui> and .say, Joe, here im a dollar, «i\e nie good seats; another niiLii would say. here is two dollars, jjlve in.- ^ood .s.'uts; another man would cotne in with a bottle of Scotch and saj-. Kive me a couple of good seats, i take the Scotch. Q. Liy the way, I might ask you how many bottles of< Scotch you have got that way? A. I have sot plenty of them. Q. Bottles of Scotch are worth money? A. Yes, especially U It la good Scotch. • Q. Did you keep records of how BBUOh money you sot'.' A. No. Q. I have aaked that question be- MtuiM from the point o( view of the tu law the United State* Oovern- BMt ia Interested In records. A. Tm, atr. <). So as I understand it you don't kaep records of how much money jrott setT A. No, Q. You yourself said nobody but you knew how much the overage w:u<? A. Can I explain that ia my own woids? Q. Certainly. A I check myself up on the fir.si ot the year, that is, In Januai-y; wli.it I am over at tli^ end of the year 1 know what that is. I check myself up to the circus. When the circus comes in Madison Square Garden that is the only vacation wc get. We don't work then. I check myself up to the first 9t the year. The only record is my Mrd. First I take my shortages tmL I will show you a cheek for ■ $I,1H ia ny porket now that is no coed. Q. Do yoti report those overages hi your income tax? A. I do; I have a copy In my pocket. Q. Are the overages listed in your Income tax ? A. It is listed as com- missions. Q. Vou h.i\,' just stated the amount of tliat i.s a matter which lies entirely, oi- rests entirely upon your own wor.r.' A. Yes, sir. Q. Ho the t I'l-ninent would li;ive no means of einM-kinK that up at all? A. There is no way of keeping a record. Ii is iini>oHsible. Q. Are you authorized to endorse the checks that come in for tickets when drawn to thi' order of Mudison Square Garden Corporation? A. Nobody ever authorised me, but I have a regular stamp that puts Kadlson Square Garden on ofilcc rMMlirds, or John Ringling's name, MlA I have many a time wrote it OB whan I knew it was for deposit Q. Mo U thks money, cliocks and Otherwise, goes into a hiK pile, and at the end «f the year such ovi-rage as there Is you keep, thtkt is what it amounts to, doesn't It? A. Yes, sir. Q. How manj' of the agencies In town here, in .New York City, have received from you to your knowl- o<lge tiikeis for this coTnin>; lif^lit? A. A lot of agencies we do not give regulars to. iliat is, tickets on con- signment, Imt ! never refuse their money If tlu-y put the money down to buy the tickets. Q. Give me the nimit>er of agen- cies here in this town to whom .it the present time ringside seats have been given. A. I can take th.it list and count them up. Q. Alt right, do that. A. There are Cventeen on there, and there might a couple more. Q. In other words, since Mondnv thoro may have Iwen some more? JL T«8, sir. Q. Are tlieso the n.iines of the agencies as of Monday? A. Y'es. Q.I will read llieni: Alexander Agency. Anitw Ai^ency. H.-mcoin. Beckhart, J.oiiis v'otm. C:ilurnet, Equity, J. I,. Maik.i, Mc llriiie, Tjl- brary, F«l>er ^: Sutton. l.*'o New- man. Tyson. .I.'irohs. Ito\'aI Sullivan, Tyson Ignited. Now. e.in you re- call the names of ,)tliers wiu) since Monday may h,'ive received tickets'* A. I cannot do it offhand; I will have to look up records for that. Q. Are there out of town agencies or speculators who also as of Mon- 4o you mean by out of town, out of town brokers? Q. Yes. A. Yea, we sold some tickets to I.,eo Conway in Philadel- phia, and sold some to— Q. Liet me aiik If that Is the list as of Mond.Ty? A. That Is the list on consignment. The others I keep no record of. Q. Then may T ask whether the tains the list of out of town brokers who have received tickets from you as of last Monday? A. Yes, Boh Gunness Is not a broker. Q. I will read the list: Bab Gun- ness, Philadelphia; John M. Chap- man, New York; Sam Wolf, Chi- cago; Alexander Peterson, Boston; Charles Murray, Buffalo, and Mr. Townsend, Detroit, and then BYunk Sardi, 112 West 44th street. New York City. Now do you wish to comment on that? A. Tho.se tickets to our knowledge were sent to Bos- f,lce \.ilue, and not to charge a ton and l'hlladelphi,a to be sold at nickel advance. Q. I>t3 you know whether your understanding w.as fuKllled? A. I cotildn't tell In the le.ast. outside of retersttn. I heard that l*eterson was arrested In Boston. Q. This Alexander Peterson wlio I is on this list I have Just read, he | being the Boston broker, he is the one to whom you referred as having been arrested? A. Tes, but we didn't have a chance to lose a nickel. We sent them to the Shaw- mut Bank. Q. That arrest was made, as you kitiiw, by the Internal Revenue De- partment of the ITnlted States Gov- ernment? A. .So I read in the papers, Mr. Tuttle. Q. And the ground of the arrest W.1S that he w.is selling the tickets at a very considerable advani-c over the box otlice price, and w;vs not putting his name and the advanced price on the back of the ticket: that's right, isn't it: you read that? A. I read that in the paper. Q. Now I have a report here from the Internal Revenue Department in Boston, dated July 19, 1927, in which there is the following, and I will .'isk you if you can confirm this—this report from the Boston Internal Revenue l>ci)artment say- ing; "It might be stated that an investigati(tn by this tiflice dis ' :>ses that the tickets sold by Mr, Peter- son were furnished by the Itickard Sporting Club, incorporated, of New Y'ork. on eonsignrnent to the Na- tional Shawmut Bank. Arlington Branch, to be lield in esi'row." They were to be released to Mr. Peterson as he paid for them, and it Is understood that he sold ap- proximately 451 tickets. The report also says that these 4G1 tickets were marked on their face as eleven-dollar tickets, but he sold them at prices ranging from $11 to $*-7.S0. New can you say whether those statements from this ofHcial report were substantially correct? A. I never seen Peterson before in my I if I' Q. I atn not interested In wh.-ther you saw iiini: I ;un .asking whether the atntenients r have just read from this oflicial report .nre sub- stantiallv corrc. t, ai cording to your information? A. I don't know whetlier they are or not. 1 Wouldn't he a hit surprised If they were true. Ringside Tickets Q. On this list you gave me Alex- ander Peterson Is down for one hundred ringside seats, but here is .a rejmrt t o the effect tha t he was selling 451 tickets before he—was arrested. A. That Is true because on that list T only sold Peterson a hundred at $27.50, I only show ring- side. I have not had a chance to show tlje rest. Q. Sii this list to out-of-town brokers is .all ringsid.' seats? A. That all. $27.RO only. Q. .'\nd outside of ringside seats yon also sent to these out-of-town brokers In the large cities an addi- tional number of tickets? A. Yes, sir. Q. This list shows In ringside seats alone as of Monday just to these out-of-town brokers alone S25 ringside seats; that number. I stip- P03e. h,Ts been increased, hasn't it? A. On this here take John M. Chapman, you cannot call him a ticket broker. He sells for face value. Sam Wolf of Cblcngo. he runs a special train. If he gets any- thing ho gets It off the train. Q. T nm not characterizing these p.-.ople A. Peterson T dt'»n't know; the others T will vouch for; Ihi' others nie nil OK. 0. T nm not .Ttta'^kiog them In rtny form, sii.ii>e or iii.tnner; wliat T .'itn sa\'- is >ou yni;is.-lf charac- terized them as l.rokers. A. I iiaven't the word broker there. Q. In yotir testimony you said brokers. A. Tou Were the ono who said brokers. Q. W e won't quarrel about tha t: these men get tnese ticketii tfit tt'- aale? A. Tes. sir, on consignment. Q. Whether we mil them brokers or not la of no Imnortance: T say the tickets sent to these people ont of town, ringside seats .Tlone, were dir tin to last Wonday? A. T. s. sir. O TTow mnnv otlinrs as of toiiav? A. We railed them all In today. O. T thoiiffht vou s^Id they list w:i.s made out? A. Tou mean ttie outsido brokers? Q. Ves. A. Bob Gunness got ad- ditional s.'ats List night. I made him pay ca.sh for th"'m, y. Tell me how many ringside seats since Monday theso OUt-pt- town people -have recelvedf A. 1 couldn't tell offhand. tj. Would it be double the num- ber? A. No. Q. Would it be a thousand? A. No. it would not be a thousand. Q. How many tickets, aaldo from the ringside, have thejr rooolvod up to the present tlmef A. Couldn't tell you offhand. ii. Can you give any estimate at ill .' A. Yes, John Chapman, I gave liini one hundred ringside, prol>ably one hundred '.'2s—J am just guess- ing— probably one himdred lis, and I have given him about two or three hundred 5,!>0s. Sam Wolf of Chicago got one hundred tickets, and I think we mailed him ten more that he paid for in cash. Q. When you say one hundred tickets, you mean in addition to ringsldeT A. All tho tiokota were ringside, one hundred ringside tickets. Q. How many tickets outside of the ringside tickets did these seven outside people get? A. You mean other people Q. You have given me a list of seven out-of-town people and you say they have got the tickets on consignment. To that extent they wt're brokers? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, how many additional tiikets tliat were not ririgside tickets did that group of s<n'en covering the seven largo cities get? A. Detroit. Michigan, Townsend, he got one hundred; no extra ones. Charlie Murray of Buffalo, one hun- dred ringside; no extra seata; Alex- ander Peterson of Boston, Massa- chusetts, got one htindred ringside; probably got one hundred 22s. one hundred 16.S0s, and proba,bly two hundred of lis. Q. Two hundred eleves-dollar tickets? A. Yes, sir; -two hundred eleven-dollar tickets. Sam "Wolf of Chicago got one hundred ringside, .and I think ho paid us cash for ten more seats. J. H. Chapman got a hundred rlngsWe; he got a hundred 22s. one hundred 16.50s, about a htmdred 7.70s, about two hundred 5.50s. Gunness got threo hundred ringside, three huTidred 22s, three hundred 16.50s, maybe four hundred lis, and one hundred 7.708. Q. Will you Just compute all of that for me, the total of that. (Short recess.) Q. (Question repeated.) A. I would say, roughly, about 2.200 tickets, cheaper priced seats, other than ringside. Q. Leaving these out-of-town brokers and coming to the In-town brokers, of which you gave me a list a moment ago, thero being seventeen on the list, and you said there were two or three others since whose names you do not re- call; how many ringside seats have those brokers got now? Or, you c.innot tell, can you? A, You mean outside of that? Q. Taking it all together now and just confining oursf'lves to ringside seats, how many of those twenty in-town agencies, how many ring- side seats hav Q they gott A. Tou mean outside of tnat list Q. Including the list. A. Includ- ing the list, 330, and outside of the list anything they got Is from the 40th to the 5Sth row. We don't know how many they got, because they buy eight, seven, six, and It is a cash transaction, Q. In oilier words, they can go to any of the forty different offlces you hav e testif ied about, and buy any number of seats? A. Yes. Q. Have you any idea how many tickets, other than ringside, they have got 7 A. We cannot tell that either. We treat the public the same as the agencies. Tou can walk up and ask for a htmdred tickets and w© never ask a ques- tion. Anybody could. Q. Was there any allotment in the first Instance to the.se various In-town brokers? A. Of other seats? Q. Of any seats at all? A. Yea, there was. Q. When was that allotment made? A. That was made when I made the allotitient you have the list of there. Q. Of what date was tho allot- ment ninde? A. T guess four or live days after the sale was open. Q. When was the sale opened? A. T cannot tell the exact date. Q, Apprnxim,ately A, Approxi- mately, July Sd. 4th or 5th. Allotments Q. Bo, within four or five days thereafter there was an allotment mmdo to these In-toWn brokers? A. Yes, Q T^id you make the allotment, or somebody else do It? A. I made the allotment. We Just gave them the tickets .and told them to sell them on a face value basis. Q. What guided you In deciding how many eaeh pn . rtlnulBs n t f s ncy would receive? A. I used my judg. ment and figured what they can sell. Tou notice I give MoBrlds the best break. I flgtired ho can sell more tickets than anybody In the city. Q. So It wns you, then, who de- termined the number that each cotiM get. and you dotertnlned that of tho ability of the p.articular agency to put the tickets out to the public is that it? A. That is cor- rect—yes, sir. Q. Was there any chart drawn up •t that time to indicate the locations that the various agencies were to getT A. No; because we took first «>ur ringside aiul held back fr(»m A to Z and from A.\ to Hit —UK was the lirst we put on sale. That gave the agencies behind tho 4td rovf. Q. I am going to ask you agata to direct your answers to my ques- tions and we will get along better. I said, was there any chart or diagram drawn up to show what the allotments were'.' .\. No; 1 just put my hand back on the 44th row, liuiied them out, and gave them to them, the same as I would anybody else. Q. On this list Is the Jacobs Agency; do you know the street number? A. He lives at the Nor- mandle Hotel. Q. Do you know where the agency Is? A. Thirty-eighth street and Broadway. Q. 1 sui)i>oso he has been selling fight tick.is for Madison Sciuare Garden for quite a time, tiasn't he? A. No more than anybody else. Q. 1 rei)eat the question— A. They have all been tho samOk The Garden Is only up two years. Q. Do you know wbothor Jacobs specializes in .flght tickotaT A. Be don't. Nobody spsctaUaoa la fight tickets. There Is too bic a oapaetty there. Q. Do you know whether Jacobs Is one of the stockholders of the Madison Square Garden? A. I don't know whether ho is or not. Q. Ha\e .\ou received any report as to what tliu fight tickets are sell- ing for on the street? A. None, Q. Over the box ofllce prlcoT A. Received no report. Q. As a mauor of information doesn't that filter Into youT A. Not a bit Q. So you have never learned about that at all after tho flght is over? A. Don't caro about It; there is no compulsion; nobody haa to give me a cent. Q. 1 am not stiggestlng that. A. Nobotiy does. Q. I am only saying whether you did not, in ilie course of the last few days, we will say, after you made your allotment, receive infor- mation or learn because of your spe<;ial position as to what advance prices the tickets are l)eing sold for? A. I am not a bit interested In that. Q. Not interested? A. Not inter ested in the least. Q. Don't you think It would be wise to be interested for the pro- tection of the public in what the agencies are doing with tho tickets which you put outT A. No. I will tell you why. Tako tho last time Demps<»y fought, and I can prove this, that we stuck speculators you may call them brokers—with 27,500 tickets in Philadelphia, and gave tho Government $29,000, and the brokers or agencies or Individ tials wlii^ liougiit tickets—the tickets never came into the figlit. Ottr door record slious tliaU The Philadel- phia Athletic Commission statement shows it. It I had wanted to be a burglar I could have bought them back for $3 apiece, and I wouldn' give them a dime for them. I told them to sell them or eat them. Q. That statement has no bearing on the question. I will try again You said In answer to that question the United States got something in that particular Instance and in all tliese offices where thousands of tickets h.'Lve bertn sold at a grcate .oivanco than fifty tents file t.'nited States (lov t-rnnient has never re- coivcKl .1 nickel under tho fifty iicr- cent tiix. A. 1 don't know tliat. I know that by newsp.aper reports, but to verify or prove it, 1 could not. Q. Y'oii said it didn't make any difference to you wh.at the agencies sold their tickets for, and 1 am say- ing don't you think that any enter- prise that l>ears such closo flattens to the public as MadlsMi Square Garden, and the function that you have there, that It would bo, say, tn the protection of the public to And out what the agencies are dolnr? A. If I had a position where I could go to work at nine o'clock in the morning and play golf In the after- noon It would, but I go to work at nine o'clock and work tmtil one, two and three o'clock tho next morning. I never pay any attention to it at all, Mr. Tuttle. I haven't time to do it. and I know I could not stop It and nobody could stop it. Q. Do<s anybody in authority, so far .as Madison Square Qarden Is conc«rned, do it, so far as jrou know? A, Not to mv knowledge. Q. Now take this case in tho De- laney-Maloney fight last year where $22 seats were being sold for $90; that fact was public knowledge, wasn't it, after the fIghtT A. I didn't hear that until I read It in the papers the other day, and you said It today. Q, Th.it Is the first time yoii heard of il • .\. Ves. Q. That partieulftp profit nmy Hat you have furnished mo con- celvcd additional tickets after this number accofdlnc to your e«tlm»to seem to you a Iiitlo <'xtrcnio, Itut don't you know thero were any number of Instances where the profit was one hundred percent, two hundred peivent over the box of- fice price; wasn't that public knowl- edge? A. Yes, newspaper knowl- edge. Q. Since thst llgHt has anything been done oC a practical naturo or ittcmpted to be done to protect tho public from a reiHHition of that sort; t<-ll me yos or no on that. A. "■lerylhlng in the world has beea )no, g. What has been done? A All our choice seats iMr. Rickard him- self CBiwcially allots, so as to till requests from customers be knows sucli as stockholders of MaUksuii Squiuo Garden, club men, city of- Ucials, newspapermen and so forth You told mo a little while agti that for tho Delaney-Maloney light there were no tickets sold by you to agencies. A. Positively not a one to my knowledge. Q. Although at that time vou ev- lucled ail tickets to agencies, not. wilhHtanding, as you have just ti sli. lii'd it to bo public knowled.Lje, that the agencies had tickets and were selling them front one hundred t*» two hundred i»crcent advance for that fight. Now I am asking you what change in the rules and regu- lations, if any. or practices of Mad* Ison Square Gai'den have been made to protect the public from a repe- tition? A. ^0 tried to protect the public in that flght by not giving them tickets. Q. In the Delaney and Maloney fight you said,you didn't give any tickets to agencies? A. No, sir. Q. But In this particular light (Dempsey-Sharkcy) you said you are giving the tii-keta to agencies freely? A. No. Bi'catise wo know there will not be a sellouL It is business witli us. Q. Then 1 ask you again hava there been any practicjil stejw since the Delaney-Maloney tight to avoid a repetition? A. Certainly, wc al- ways take every precaution to keep the choice seats out of tho hands of the speculators. Protecting Public Q. They did that In the Delaney- Maloney fight and they failed? A. They failed. Q. Now, I say has there been any new meiisure taken since that time to protect the imblic? A. Mr. Tut- tle, if you will tako that list and look at tho names and addresses of everybody down thero that shows they protect the public, Q. Since the Dehiney-Malotiey fight, when you said they failed in their efforts to protect the gouging of the public, I am asking you now whether any new measure not in force during tlie time of the De- laney-Maloney fight, has since been takenT A. Yes. Q. What new measure? A. The .same measure we always use. We. take our mail orders. Wo fill them. We know who the people are. We have a regular class of fight fans. We know who they are and always give them good seats. Q, If the measures you are now referring to you h.ave alw.aj'S had they .arc not new nieasures; no'iv I am asking you since the coiispiiat- ous failure in the Delani'y-M.iloiiey fight ha.«5 tliere been any new meas- ure not in force then taken for tho protection of the public? A, Tou want a frauli answer? Q. Y'es, A. What's the use of a new measure'.' It you try to' keep tickets out of the hands of specu- lators it's like trying to keep a duck out of water. Q. Then there hits been no new measure? A. Nothing. Q. Have you with you a Hat which shows the assignment of tlis ringside seats by name td the hold- er, and the location of the seat? A. No, I have a list that Is about fif- teen files, 1 have some of the im- portant ones here. Q. I am not asking for anybody's name at all, I am only asking for the existence of the list. A. Yes, sir. Q You haven't a list with you? A. No. I couldn't carry It, it Is too big. if is impossible to curry It. Q, And that list will be pre- served A, Y'es, we will hold on to It as long as j-ou want it. Q. It would then be po'ssihle, of course, to trace any particula.r ticket? A. Any ticket that you can mention between A to Z. say the first :t5 rows ringside I will tell you to whom wo sold it. If a specu- lator sold It, we will tell you who we sold it to, and you can put your finger on the man. Q. How about the boxesT A. I have a list of the boxes. If it was given to a manager of a fighter you can trace it also. For the first 35 rows we have not only the list of every seat, the name .tnd address of the person who got it, and the location of the seat. Q. Does that apply to any tickets other than in the first 35 rows? A. No; there are too many s'-ats. ft would take a force of a hundred men to keep track of that. Mr Tutlle: I think that will be all, then. In case I desire any further information I can get you by telephone? The Witness: Tes, yo'M don't want Bennett, my partner, down here, do you? Q. Can he supply any informa- tion other than you h.^vo given us? A. He don't know anything about It. He can't supi)ly an> thing. Q, Y'ou keep this under you own hand, don't ynu? A. If you have \\]t:ii 1 h.ivi' in mv po'cket now. one I chec k tor-uaa for $ 550, another for $200 and others, would keep them under your h Q. If r kept all overages I woulil. too. A. But when you cluck >1P the short.ages yo'u would get I"* surprisf^ of vour life. Q. Would it be possible In con- nection with your fnlirre nctlvt (Comlnuod on pnse 4»j